CHROMiX

i1 Photo B&W Beginners Question

OK, so I just got the i1-Photo, and making color-profiles for my inkjet printers works just fine :slight_smile:
Now, here is my silly beginner’s question - I got one of those hp 7960s that are pretty great for black&white. They come with 3 shades of gray, so I don’t have to worry about a color cast.
Is there a way to make a profile for the printer so that I can softproof (this is just about shades of gray), or build up a curve-layer that I can apply to my grayscale images? Using the i1Photo?
I was thinking about just printing out a grayscale ramp with %5 increments or something, but how do I then make measurements of that and apply them to a curve :question:
Many Thanks for any help!
Ben

At 8:55 AM -0700 5/20/05, Benjamin wrote:

OK, so I just got the i1-Photo, and making color-profiles for my inkjet printers works just fine :slight_smile:
Now, here is my silly beginner’s question - I got one of those hp 7960s that are pretty great for black&white. They come with 3 shades of gray, so I don’t have to worry about a color cast.
Is there a way to make a profile for the printer so that I can softproof (this is just about shades of gray), or build up a curve-layer that I can apply to my grayscale images? Using the i1Photo?
I was thinking about just printing out a grayscale ramp with %5 increments or something, but how do I then make measurements of that and apply them to a curve :question:
Many Thanks for any help!

try creating a profile with the normal (larger) target. It should be able to handle soft proofing for you… (and output actually). For output you may want to use a larger target that more effectively samples the grays…

Regards,

Steve


o Steve Upton CHROMiX www.chromix.com
o (hueman) 866.CHROMiX


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Thanks Steve.
This doesn’t work, though :frowning:
Sorry, I wasn’t very clear. Basically, I am only using the grey inks for B&W, so if I print out the RGB chart, it’ll come out only in shades of grey, and iMatch doesn’t appreciate that :open_mouth:
I thought there might be a way to use maybe i1Share? Or something else? To build, if not a profile, maybe an adjustment curve to allow me to preview the (print-) output on the monitor.
Any ideas?
Or am I on the wrong path?

At 5:55 PM -0700 5/25/05, Benjamin wrote:

Thanks Steve.
This doesn’t work, though :frowning:
Sorry, I wasn’t very clear. Basically, I am only using the grey inks for B&W, so if I print out the RGB chart, it’ll come out only in shades of grey,

right… I was expecting that…

and iMatch doesn’t appreciate that :open_mouth:

now that I was not expecting… what happens? do you get an error? a bad profile?

I thought there might be a way to use maybe i1Share? Or something else? To build, if not a profile, maybe an adjustment curve to allow me to preview the (print-) output on the monitor.
Any ideas?
Or am I on the wrong path?

well one idea is to use the gray curve option in Photoshop. It’s a bit of a pain but my understanding is that you can feed the results of some hand measurements into Photoshop and get a decent gray curve out of it… I think it’s done in the Color Settings area under Gray:

curious about the results from the Match software though… We may be able to do it with a better target (one with only gray patches)

Regards,

Steve


o Steve Upton CHROMiX www.chromix.com
o (hueman) 866.CHROMiX


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Error message. It suggest that I have scanned the wrong line and doesn’t let me go on to the next one. :frowning:

I think I can figure out the Photoshop part; I just don’t know how to go about the hand measurement part. How do I do that? Ideally, I would be able to read a percentage of K; somehow read paper white, assign that 0%, print 100% black, assign that 100%, and then maybe have 5% increaments on a step-wedge and use all that to build a curve.
But I don’t know how to do the hand measurements :blush:

Benjamin,

download the free Colorlab from GMB.

Build a greyramp in the same values as the custom dortgaincurve under GREY in Colorsettings (photoshop).

Then let colorlab generate both a new measuretarget as well as a referencefile. The good thing with this route is that you do get it all in sync and can use the faster stripmode.

Load the referencefile in Profilemaker PMP5 measuertool and measure in stripmode. You can download a free demo at GMB and install only the measuretool. If the measuretool doesn’t work in PMP5 demo then use the PMP4 which works. I belive that the PMP5 did not work in the first versions of 5 but now does.

Load these values into the customdotgain curve under Colorsettings>GREY in Photoshop and then SAVE this out as an black&white ICC profile. This can be used as a destination for conversions from the gammaspace you’re editing in or as a proofprofile in the softproofsetup.

Using Colorlab can be a little tricky since there is no manual whatsoever. I guided another user at the Galbrait forum earlier. Check this link for the step by step although I wrote it a bit messy…

robgalbraith.com/ubbthreads/ … e=9#320812

Good luck,

Bobo

Bobo,

thank you very much for your reply.

I tried to make your method work, but didn’t have much success. Colorlab especially is a major mystery to me.

Anyway, I found this reference http://harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html#softproof
which allows to use Eye-One Match to make a profile to then softproof greyscale images in Photoshop.

Not exactly what I was looking for (can’t use it for printing), but for softproofing, it seems to work fine.

Thanks again, Ben

Ben,

The post at Galbrait is messy and holds a lot of info for more than you need for the BW stuff. If you follow what I tried to clean up for you below it shoulden’t be a problem. I also posted this at the Adobe Colormanagment forum long time ago. The guy Lou Dina who asked for it uses it for getting values for the Bowhaus rip…he also wrote the manual for that rip.

The whole idea is to get a measuretarget+a referncefile for the EyeOne which will make it possible to drag the spectro in scanningmode instead of measure patch by patch.

When you get measuretarget printed out, then measure it with the help of the measuretool in Profilemaker demo. Save the measurefile and open it in any texteditor like notepad on the PC or texedit on the mac. Now you have the labvalues from the measurement.

Bruce Lindbloom has Excelsheets that works as calculators for transforming lab values to dotgain along the whole ramp in 5% steps for building pure dotgaincurves…which can be used to build them in the dropdownmenu of photoshop Workingspaces>Grey>customdotgain. Then SAVE out as simplified ICC profiles in the same dropdownmenu.

Here you go:

COLORLAB

File>NEW

Edit>NEW PATCHES: Number of patches: 21 (?) patches per colostrip: 1 (or 2 if wanting 2 shorter rows instead of 1 long…they have to fit into the lengt of the EyeOne ruler…: this is the horisontal amount).
For the BW testchart this is one or two rows with the same amount of patches as total of the dotgain curves digitboxes.
OK.

Filter>Mode: Lab

Go to the new black empty document and doubleclick on the first black patch : write the first value of the dotgaindigit box in Photsohop.
Fill the whole row with values.0-4-8 etc…>>>> or whatever you find there

OK.

Filter>mode: RGB or Grey

File>Export>format:.txt file
This is the new refsfile which you will use to build a measuretarget to print and use with the EyeOne in stripreading mode.


Open the refsfile (the one you built) in Coilorlab again if you happend to close it down.

Filter>Conversion>testchartdefine.
Chose the “device”. For example EyeOne.
Chose the resolution of the new .TIFF chart that will fit your printer.
Go directly down to number of patches, Uncheck the fixed box.
Write in the vertical x horisontal amount of patches that you want the layout to be on paper to measure.
Check both the boxes for “fixed”.
Check the boxes fixed also for chartsize.
OK

The two new document on screen is:
#Target testchart
#Untitled.

Activate the “Target Testchart” document.
File>Export: .txt file. (this will be the new refsfile so name it as such)
Activate the Untitled document.
File>SaveAS: .tiff (add the extenstion yourself and this is the outputchart)

(So this is a little confusing as you’re using the Target Testchart to export as the new refsfile and the other Untitled as the printing target.tiff. Don’t bother, just do it.)

Now print out the target, load the refsfile in Profilemaker measuretool and measure with the Eye One.

Use the Bruce Lindbloom dotgaincalculator and get the Lab>dotgain values.

Create the ICC profile by writing the numbers into the dotgaincurve dgitboxes then OK. Open the dropdownmenu again and SAVE GRAY. This saves out the greyscale ICC profile for use in the softproof or as a target for conversion from the Grey gamma space to the dotgainsituation.

Visit the Adobe ColormanagmentForum and serach for Colorlab if you want to take part of a personal conversation between me and Lou about this. But you should be able to make it work with the info above…

Bobo

Bruce Lindbloom:

brucelindbloom.com

Then click “Calc” and scroll down to the last download on that page. That’s what you want.

Bobo, thank you very much for your long and detailed reply :smiley:

I think I’m getting much closer, but unfortunately I still haven’t quite managed to make it work. Please bear with me…

OK, so the following things came up:

building the target in Colorlab; in PS, in the custom-dotgain dialog, the values you can enter, are 2,4,6,8,10,20,…,90%, making for a total number of 13 patches, am I doing things right so far?
When entering the values for the patches, Colorlab allows input of 3 numbers; I’m using only the first one (so for example, in the 8% patch, I entered 8.00 0.00 0.00), is that right?

In any case, the target looks quite good, so I think I did this part correctly. 8)

I then used the Measuretool; for some reason it didn’t work in strip-mode (error message about getting to many errors during the scan), but with only 13 targets, it’s easy enough to just do it patch by patch.

Looking then at the measure-txt file, some more confusion as I am once again showing my ignorance -

for each patch I get 6 measured values: XYZ_X, Y and Z, and LAB_L, A and B. I’m thinking that LAB_L is the one to use, yes?

If so, only one problem remains; using Bruce Exelsheet only allows for 5% increments, meaning that I can’t use the first 4 patches (2,4,6,8%), or am I doing something wrong here?

It would be great if you could let me know if I’m on the right track,

Many Thanks for your help! :smiley:

building the target in Colorlab; in PS, in the custom-dotgain dialog, the values you can enter, are 2,4,6,8,10,20,…,90%, making for a total number of 13 patches

Yes, I was still having the larger RIP scale in mind where Lou used LAB values input directly from the measurement. Just do as many you have in the PS Custom dotgain. That’s all you need.

I’m using only the first one (so for example, in the 8% patch, I entered 8.00 0.00 0.00), is that right?

Yes, if you’re in LAB mode that’s the L channel.

I then used the Measuretool; for some reason it didn’t work in strip-mode (error message about getting to many errors during the scan), but with only 13 targets, it’s easy enough to just do it patch by patch.

Well, I think thatv you built the ramp in the wrong direction on paper. Horosntal vs vertical, you know. This puts the separating black and white “rods” in either the right place or the wrong place. They should sit inbetween the patches so that give the EyeOne spectro an indication when a new patch is going to switch. Normally an EyeOne target is “scrambled” with a irregular layout so that the instrument will notice a new patch. It has to be a lrger difference in tone between the patches than next step in a greyramp…that’s where the rods comes into the game. Just rebuild the target with the patches in the other direction. That is, switching the numbers in the “patches per colorstrip” >><<“Number of patches” when under Edit>New patches.

each patch I get 6 measured values: XYZ_X, Y and Z, and LAB_L, A and B. I’m thinking that LAB_L is the one to use, yes?

'Yes, when using a pure BW, like you’re doing now. Zero the other channels in the Lindbloomcalculator. (If building a colorprofile to be used in a softproof for previewing a “toned” BW, you can use another profilingapp which takes any refsfile/target even those not hardwired in like the EyeoneMatch. It’s seems to be possible to make a workaround to get EyeOneMatch to take this too…But in such case you will do an ordinary colorprofile from greypatches. That regognizes the tints in the ramp.)

only one problem remains; using Bruce Exelsheet only allows for 5% increments, meaning that I can’t use the first 4 patches (2,4,6,8%), or am I doing something wrong here?

I know, you’re not doing wrong. That’s a bit frustrating. You can take the neighbour 4 and 6 and calculate roughly a midbtween value for the 5 %.

I forgot to tell an important thing, I don’t remember if the Lindbloom calculator gave you the final dotgainvalue or the “classic” values. When using PMP5 dotgain tools one can get it all served and put the values directly into the dotgain boxes. However, I think Lindbloom is the value that yu add to the existing value. Like this; if the 50% step is measured and calculated to have a 21% dotgain then…50+21=71. Enter 71 into the box. You will notice that pretty quickly. I don’t have Excel on this mac I’m on at the moment, so I can’t check.

The stripreading of even short ramps is handy when evaluating different media/paperchoices in a simple printerdriver before profiling. Making a layout on paper with a grey/rgb ramp on several layers you can turn on/off each layer and rerun the paper through the printer. Each layer is offset from each other so the ramps get placed side by side. So, even thoug the ramps just have a few patches you can stripread each on from that paper in the same manner as a normal big target…that’s why I’m pushing you to the stripmode…just restart the measurement like it was a new target and save out the measurefile. Then move to the next. Saves wrists.

Hope you get it to work,

Bobo

PS. if you’re into BW rips, have a look at the one I’ve been mentionening. Haven’t had time to go into it but will in the future. Download the manual written by Lou Dina and look at the flow.

bowhaus.com/news/qc.htm

OK Bobo, thanks for your patience!

I believe you are right about me printing the target the wrong way; I’ll try the other direction tomorrow.

You’re also correct about having to add the existing value after the calculation to get the dot-gain to enter into PS.
What I get now is quite a nice looking curve. :slight_smile:

Just one hiccup - for the 90 setting I end up with a dotgain value of 101% (?), which PS doesn’t let me enter; maximum is 100%. Don’t quite know what to make of that and if I should be concerned. :open_mouth:

Apart from that, everything is coming together nicely, thank you very much!

I had a quick look a the Bowhaus site; looks quite good, and with a reasonable price, but does it only work with Epson printers?

Many Thanks again, Ben

Ben,

a few quick words as I’m on the run here:

Glad it is getting closer now!

When you remake the targetdirection in Colorlab, don’t forget to rerun the whole process by generating a new refsfile at the same time…

As for the 90 dot, you can’t get what you can’t get. You should take a look at your mediasettings in the printerdriver. In other words experiment with different paperchoices in the dropdownmenu for that particular paper you’re profiling. Use the spectro and read especially the darker patches with different mediasettings. These mediachoices affect how much ink is hitting paper and by doing so also the values you get in regards of dotgain…

To much ink using a certain mediachoice for that paper and the profile gets much more job to do. If the darkest patches blocks up to early you lose the chance to measure more than to where it all blocks up. Black is black. So, why not making a 85-100 greyramp with small tiny steps like 2% so that you can test what mediasetting will set black closest to where it belongs…perhaps the 90 dot will show up a different situation then? Maybe the pump is to heavy set at the moment? You’ve got all the tools the spectro, the Colorlab, the Calculator and the grey ICC creator Photoshop. All the chances in the world to keep control. You’re a lucky guy.

Put some greyramps side by side on individual layers in a Photoshop document, turn on/off and reload the big paper in the printer. Then print with another mediasetting…let the spectro swallow patches allover the place.

I don’t know if Bowhaus has expanded their range of supported printers yet, but somewhere at that site they have published such a list. Go for Lou’s manual and see all the options in detail. He has put his soul into taking controll and help others to understand the power in it. He explains the workflow in detail. Support for the EyeOne spectro directly in the rip was discussed, this would put the greyrampmeasurement directly into the curvedialog…if that is brought to daylight yet I don’t know. That will blow the printerdrivers mediasettings out of space completely…

Anyway, let us all know how it works out for you and don’t forget to bookmark the Chromix site. The best place to buy tools right? (I don’t work for them…just buying from them and like their serviceminded attitudes)

Have fun!

Bobo

First of all, forgive my late question.

I followed Bobo Bauer’s explaination, as printing grayscale image(2,4,6,8,10,20,…,90%), calculate with Eye-One pro and PM5, saved reference file. Now I will open this reference file with text editor, and input L value of each (2,4,6,8,10,20,…,90%) to Bruce Lindbloom’s dotgain calculator which is made with spreadsheet. But I don’t know where I shoud input these value to. For example, I want to get dotgain value of 10%, which excel sheet column should I input to? Please tell me specifically. I know this question is for novice, please understand.

ps. I’m user of PM5. Can I get dotgain value of specific L value directly in PM5, or from Colorshop X of X-Rite?
I think it’s possible to get dotgain value from Density scratchpad of Colorshop X. But as manual doesn’t refer, I don’t know how to apply samples which is needed to paper, solid, tint section of scrathpad to get dotgain value. Can anybody explain more?

Thank you for your help.

ah park.

If you set up your device to measure spectral data (In MeasureTool), and open the resulting text file in MeasureTool, you can view density and dotgain info for your data. This is more accurate than BruceLindbloom’s Dotgain calculation from Lab values. Keep in mind that the dotgain values shown in MeasureTool are based on DIN density values, rather than Status T, as is used in the U.S. I usually export Status T density values from the spectral data, open it in Excel, then calculate dotgain using the Murray-Davies equation…but if you do this, keep in mind that the exported density is already subtracting paper density out.

First of all, I apology for my late reply. and thank you for all the kind answers.
As Mr. Michael Eddington said, I cheched and measured spectral data, then opened text file in MeasuerTool, but couldn’ find screen which showed density and dotgain info.

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Lab / 18 Patches
A1 15.3 0.8 1.6 … R1 0,0 0,0 0,0

Info above is shown whenever I put mouse over measured patch.
I think there’s something wrong.
Can you advice me again?
I know a little about other sort of handling, but feel so shamed about this novice question.

Thank you.

There should be a Density and Dotgain tabs along the top when viewing the spectral text file in MeasureTool. You should also see a button along the bottom to “Show more info” or something to that affect that will allow you to change the illuminant, and another to “Export Lab data” if you are viewing a spectral text file.

Are you Measuring within MeasureTool? Some other applications (Colorport for example, and perhaps ColorShop) that export spectral files will not have the fancy options within MeasureTool due to different measurement resolutions. You also may be limited by the device you’re measuring with, but if its an i1 utilized in MeasureTool, this shouldn’t be the issue.

Patch read outs will be Lab regardless if you measure spectral or Lab.

And please don’t call me “Mr.” you make me sound more important than I actually am. :wink: …“Mike”, “Mikey” or “Dude” will suffice